This blog is an astronaut.
“Ladies!
Worried about your weight? If not, you should be!
Now that you are, you can get down to eating this! It tastes like cardboard, it’s a greyish beige and it will make you thin!
You too can look like you always wanted to look by not eating properly and forgetting what flavours are!”
Ladies, specifically. This kind of advert angers my girlfriend no end, and I can understand why. She is a self-confessed feminist, and I applaud this fact. However, I have a few issues with her whole stand point. And I raise these issues with her as she does with me about her point of view, and now I’m going to share some of these with you.
Feminism is a concept that I understand and applaud, but that also confuses me.
The anger and malevolence towards the media by feminists and women in general confuses me.
The malevolence towards men by a lot of feminists confuses me.
That there have been no similar movements for men, no ‘Masculist’ movement, confuses me.
And here’s why:
The main arguments for feminism, as far as I can make out are:
Inequality in the workplace
Objectifying women
Pressure on women to look/dress certain ways
Gender stereotyping
Media representation
Now, I put it to you, the reader, to tell me that these are not things that also affect men. Maybe not in exactly the same sorts of ways, but there can be many a comparison drawn.
I work in a pub, as you probably know, and getting this job was not as easy as it might have seemed. Most of the bar staff are women. And there’s a reason for this. Women sell more beer than men. Now you can take one view on this; that this is because men, who are our main source of custom, will hang around longer to ogle a pretty barmaid and thus spend more money. My stand on this is that, as far as inequality in the workplace goes, this is not in my favour.
This does not just apply to my job, mind. I know a lot of women who will flaunt their ‘Womanly assets’ because it will get them what they want. A lot of the time, these women are just as quick to pull out the old ‘My eyes are up here’ routine, despite the fact that they often have everything on show but their nipples. I find it very hard to reason with someone who will use one trick to get something that they want, but find it inappropriate when someone gives them a glance. Sometimes, a man will eye up a girl because she’s showing a lot of cleavage, and sometimes because he actually finds her attractive. In one instance, it’s offensive, in the other, it’s flattering, although both consist of a man looking at a woman. In most cases, it is down to whether or not the woman finds the man attractive as to whether or not she considers his glance to be offensive or flattering. This kind of logic boggles me.
The company I work for only employs one man a year, because typically, men sell less produce. It was harder for me to get a job there because I don’t have breasts, and therefore have to rely on actually being good at my job. It shouldn’t be this way, but it is. I’m not saying that the girls aren’t good at their jobs, what I’m saying is that it was harder for me to get the job in the first place, because I will typically not sell as much beer, because I have a Y chromosome. It’s not anything to do with people pigeonholing genders, and it’s not to do with me being annoyed that I very rarely get bought a drink, but the girls seems to get bought plenty (although I do get quite annoyed about that, especially when I’m serving the same guys all night and actually selling them beer, rather than just serving it, but as soon as one of the girls serves them, they buy her a drink. Sexist pigs.), it’s to do with profit. I was up against more competition with only one ‘Male’ job vacancy available than the girls were. And if something is selling well, sell more of it. In this case, tits. People will spend a lot of money on advertising campaigns in order to sell a product, and if the POS or the advertising campaign is working, why not stick with it?
Which brings me to my next point:
Advertising, targeted at women.
Typically, healthy foods will be advertised mainly towards women. Now, I can see two sides to this, so let’s break it down.
Yes, women are the main demographic, and if you want to sell something, you need a demographic. It’s all very well being annoyed at advertising campaigns, but if they weren’t trying to sell to somebody, they wouldn’t be doing their job.
But there aren’t any adverts directed at men, so who do we turn to when we want to lose weight?! Surely we don’t eat the same things as the women! Why, that would make us like them! What a blow to our masculinity! Obviously, as men, we don’t need to worry about our appearance. That kind of insecurity is down to women.
Now, the sad fact of the matter is, it is almost impossible to have an advertising campaign whose demographic is everyone. Having said that, I disagree with this notion that women typically care more about their weight or how they look than men. This, to me, is a crock of shit.
Plenty of women get so irate about how women are told to behave or dress in certain ways, but it’s not as simple as that. Yes, slim, bronzed women will be spread all over magazines, and some of those magazines will contain pictures of celebrities not looking their best and isn’t is surprising that not everyone looks at their best all the time? What a fucking revelation. Sometimes celebrities don’t look as polished as they do when they’re in for a photo shoot. Fuck-a-doodle-doo. But this isn’t telling women how to dress or look. Fashions come and go, certain people are more photogenic than others, and certain types of people will be used to sell certain things. But it’s up to you to decide how you want to dress or look. And it’s the same for men. Women have Grazia and Cosmo to ‘tell them how to look’, men have Men’s Health or Front or Zoo to tell us how we should behave, what we should wear and how muscular we should be. But fuck, I don’t want to look like these guys! Sure, I’d like to be thinner, sure I’d like to have some muscle definition, but shine a light! I don’t want to look like all I do all day every day is bench press JCB’s!
It’s exactly the same psychology involved, attacking the same insecurities regardless of gender. We’re told in the same way as women how to dress, but it’s up to us whether to obey the great Media Gods.
This being said, who doesn’t want to look nice sometimes? And if that means wearing that dress you like, or putting on that shirt than fits you quite nicely, or having put in some time at the gym and being proud of how you look now, that’s not a bad thing is it? That’s just paying attention to how you look. That’s precisely what Gok Wan’s there for, a bit of self confidence. And self confidence isn’t evil. When it goes too far and becomes vanity or pretension, then it borders on evil, but being pleased with how you look is healthy.
And then there’s TV. Women will get angry as a bear with itchy balls about being told by an advert to eat salad now and again, but still watch Sex and the City. People watch The Only Way Is Essex (though fuck knows why) but no one is telling you that this is the way to live.
It’s optional.
Looking at magazines or photographs of ‘the beautiful people’ might make you feel like you want to lose some weight, but no one is telling you to! (Unless it’s a doctor, in which case, you probably should.) But who doesn’t want to feel better about themselves? I envy the people that don’t, I really do, but it’s not just women who have body issues. The same stresses appear in the media on men as they do on women. Look, here’s how it goes:
‘LADIES!’
The ‘Media’ says,
‘Get thinner! Wear less clothes! Wear more clothes! Wear no clothes! Just wear shoes! Don’t wear those shoes! Wear these shoes! Get some exercise! Wear jewellery! Wear perfume! Get bigger breasts! Only find these kinds of men attractive! Look like these women!
BIG BROTHER IS JUDGING YOU!’
and so on and so on.
And on the other side:
‘GENTLEMEN!’
The voice of advertising bellows,
‘Get thinner! Wear less clothes! Wear more clothes! Wear no clothes! Wear these clothes! Smell like this! Get some exercise! You don’t have enough blades on that razor! Grow muscles! Get a bigger penis! Act like these testosterone-laden pricks! Enjoy sport! Only find these kinds of women attractive! Look like these men!
BIG BROTHER IS JUDGING YOU!’
Football, shagging, cars, pint of tits, etc. etc. etc.
So, you see, to my mind, there are exactly the same pressures on both sexes when it comes to how to look, act and dress. As for objectifying women? Men will act like that, but so will women. I turn your attention to the old Pepsi adverts. As a man, I can tell you that there are few things more emotionally crippling than being giggled at by a group of women from behind their hands. I’ve seen teenage girls in high school, hell, I knew a few of them, and I know how bitchy they can be. And with some people, it doesn’t change. But those insults and crippling rumours happen to the guys as well.
I heard a statistic that said something along the lines of:
‘in American children aged 8 or 9 or so, the number of kids wanting to be President is about equal in both genders. When they get to about 15 or so, the statistic changes.’
When I was 8 or 9, I think I wanted to be a cowboy. Not much has changed, but I have gained a little perspective over the years, and realised that it’s not really feasible. I imagine the same happened to a lot of those American kids.
Apparently, only 16% of Film directors, writers, editors and producers are women. I’m not sure what this proves, other than more men want to be Film directors than women, perhaps? I’m not really sure it’s to do with misogyny in the film industry. I bet if you looked into Hairdressing or Fashion, there would be more women working in those sectors. Same probably goes for floristry, but at a guess, I’d say you’ll probably find more male greengrocers and butchers.
No one is forcing anyone to go into a particular industry. No one is telling you ‘you MUST behave like this!’ but there are certain social guidelines. Society dictates a lot of things, and yes, the Media will influence society, but everyone is free to think what they want. I put it to you that society is mainly dictated by the people. Society will change within cultures, and the ways people dress, talk, eat and behave will change.
Now it may be, for the sake of argument, that you believe that a woman’s place is in the kitchen. And you’d be allowed to think that. I, for one, would call you a complete fucking tool, but you’re allowed to think it. In the same way, if a woman enjoys cooking, let her get on with it. Don’t refuse to cook because you don’t want to fall into the ‘A woman’s place is in the kitchen’ stereotype. That’s just backwards.
Me, I love cooking, and despite the whole ‘A woman’s place is in the kitchen’ misogynistic bullshit view, I can name more male chefs than I can women. Not just on TV either, but generally. I know and have met quite a few chefs in my time, and most of them have been men.
I understand the feminist arguments, and I’m all for it! But I find it somewhat unfair that men don’t have a ‘Masculist’ movement. Now, previously, I could understand this. We didn’t really have much to complain about, but nowadays, things are changing.
I want to start my own movement. Not one focused primarily at men, but something to say:
‘I don’t want to look like the ‘beautiful’ people employed to sell me things. I don’t want to be told who to find attractive. I want to be who I want to be. I want to fight for what I believe in, to say what I wish to say and make myself heard. I want people to understand who I am as an individual, and not to be pigeonholed or judged before people have met me.’
and so, I shall start the Individualist movement.
And who doesn’t want to feel like this? Regardless of Gender, race, creed, age, sexual persuasion, whatever?
Unfortunately, when it comes to advertising, they still need to do their job and will have demographics and pychographics. When it comes to photography and fashion, they will use more stereotypically attractive people who adhere to certain body types, because when we buy something, we want to look like the attractive person selling it to us. Using unattractive people to market something just wouldn’t work as well. When it comes to equality in the workplace, it doesn’t just come down to income, it comes down to the people that you work with, and if some people turn more of a profit or are better at their jobs than others, that’s life. Some people will choose one job over another, but that’s not to do with gender, in most cases.
Advertising is ruthless, the world can be a cruel place, and we all have insecurities that people will prey on in order to get what they want.
I’m all for feminism, and it has achieved some wonderful things, but I don’t want to be scorned just because I’m a man. Surely that’s a backwards and hypocritical view of things?
So ‘Girl Power’ if you want to, or just enjoy being a woman. I will enjoy being a man, and I am going to fight for the Individualist movement.
Big love,
L
PS. I am partaking in Movember this year, and this seems as good a time to mention it as any. Please, any donation would be greatly appreciated, whether you like my blog or not.
You can donate here, all money raised will go to charities which raise money to combat Prostate cancer and Testicular cancer.
Thank you.
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Tags: advertising, feminism, film, gender, media, men, stereotyping, women
03/10/2011 at 01:15 |
You are not partaking in Movember. You are taking part. You partake of things. Actual things, not events. Other than that, nice.
03/10/2011 at 08:16 |
Ah, yes, you are quite right. It had been a long couple of hours writing this one, and I was quite tired by the end of it. I thought I’d proof read it properly, although something always slips through the net. Thank you.
03/10/2011 at 17:42 |
“In most cases, it is down to whether or not the woman finds the man attractive as to whether or not she considers his glance to be offensive or flattering. This kind of logic boggles me.”
Why? Should women not have the choice to accept or reject male attention? If a man has judged a woman and ruled her good enough to look at, the woman should have the right to judge the man in return. If some unknown lady came up to you and stared at your crotch, I reckon you’re more likely to think “Bloody hell, what’s up with her?” than “Well, these jeans ARE a bit tight. Better go along with it.”
Complaining about how the girls at work get free drinks all the time, hopefully you’re not blaming them for this. They’re not ASKING for the drink. If you need to get angry at someone, get angry at the men in the pub who think the girls behind the bar should be rewarded for being good looking.
“And if something is selling well, sell more of it. In this case, tits. People will spend a lot of money on advertising campaigns in order to sell a product, and if the POS or the advertising campaign is working, why not stick with it?”
Because it’s degrading? Because you don’t see men swinging their balls next to a bottle of cider? Because you’ll crush the small-chested teenage girl’s dream of becoming a barkeep?
I do agree that there are no adverts aimed at weight loss specifically for men. But that’s because men aren’t supposed to lose weight, they’re supposed to get super buff. Ryvita ain’t gonna build those pecs boy. Advertising is fucking awful on both sides of the gender line, but I _will_ point out that it is MUCH more acceptable for a bloke to be fat than a woman. Fat men are funny and jolly and get the girl through sheer wit and personality. Fat women must be lonely. Although they CAN be funny, it’s only when they’re making jokes about being fat/old women (lookin at you, Jo Brand).
“We’re told in the same way as women how to dress, but it’s up to us whether to obey the great Media Gods.”
It is _becoming_ optional. Just about. Don’t forget how powerful those Gods are, especially when you’re impressionable. My problem isn’t that I’ll never look like Cheryl Cole, it’s that young girls will see these adverts and think their worth is based on their appearance. That young boys will play a game that tells them women are there to follow you around looking sexy.
Also I think it’s a bit rude that feminism has BARELY got started and you’re already thinking that men need a front of their own. COME ON! LET US PLAY! You guys have been at it for AAAGES!
Anyway. That’s all I’ve got to say about that.
03/10/2011 at 20:25 |
“Why? Should women not have the choice to accept or reject male attention?”
I think my point was that if a girl has her tits flapping about all over the place, it’s going to attract attention, but a lot of the time, said girl will react positively or negatively based on how attractive she finds the man. If I was waltzing around with my cock out, I’d expect attention, but wouldn’t begrudge attention from women who I don’t find attractive.
Women with ridiculously low-cut tops are vying for attention, and I don’t find it unreasonable to think that if someone is doing something for attention that they should tolerate the attention they then draw.
If a woman were to walk up and stare at my crotch, my response would not be based on how attractive I find that woman, it would be simply that someone was staring at my crotch when I have not knowingly done anything to draw attention to it.
I agree with the point about it not being the girls’ fault that the men buy them drinks. (I am still bitter about the fact that people rarely buy me drinks, though. But that’s not the barmaids’ fault, rightly said, but I think I acknowledged that and blamed it on the blokes anyway.)
If something is selling well, then there’s a reason it’s selling. If it’s the advertising or the marketing, rather than the quality of the product, then the marketers are doing their job. In this instance, more drinks are sold by the women who work in my pub than the men, so it makes sense to hire more women in order to sell more drinks and turn more of a profit. This works out well for the girls, who get the job relatively easily, and get more hours. It works out well for the company who make more money if the girls are selling the drinks to the pervy punters. It works out less well for me, because it is harder to get the job in the first place and harder to get the hours.
Small chested girls can, and do, still become bar maids, although, unfortunately, most men will often try and buy drinks off/for the busty barmaid rather than the flat chested one. That’s just how a lot of men are. I’m not condoning this, just stating that this is the world that we live in. This applies to almost everything, however. Most men would rather be sold something by a desirable young woman than a sweaty, hairy, middle aged man. Similarly, I imagine that most women would rather be sold something by an attractive young man rather than a sweaty, hairy, middle aged woman. Male pub drinkers will comment on the busty barmaid’s chest, female restaurant goers will comment about the arse on the nice young Mediterranean waiter. And I bet those women would leave him a tip, based on his looks and not always necessarily based on the level or service.
This dynamic works both ways depending on context.
“It is MUCH more acceptable for a bloke to be fat than a woman”, I completely disagree with. For every Jo Brand there’s a Johnny Vegas. For every Michelle McManus there’s a Rick Waller. Either gender will still get mocked for their weight, but men are typically more comfortable accepting that they are overweight and either being too lazy to do anything about it, or just accept it as a fact and carry on with their lives. The weight issue isn’t to do with gender, it’s to do with societies reactions to weight. I don’t think it is easy for anyone with weight issues, but I do not think this has anything to do with gender. Women suffer just as much as men in this department.
The problem comes when women seem to think that to attract men they have to be anorexic and unhealthily skinny. And sure, some guys go for that, though I can’t for the life of me think why. But that’s attracting a certain type of man who finds that attractive. The same thing goes for the other end of the spectrum as well. Some people find some body types more attractive, and if you want to get someone who likes skinny people, then getting skinny is an option. If you want to get someone who goes for bigger women, then getting fat is an option. If you want someone who wants you for you, regardless of weight, then you’re in there. Then it’s just down to what makes you feel good personally, rather than necessarily trying to impress them.
Saying that fat women CAN be funny only when they’re making jokes about being fat and old, well… If a woman is funny, she’s funny, regardless of weight. If she isn’t funny, then she isn’t funny. Shappi Khorsandi; skinny, not funny. Sarah Millican; not especially skinny, funny.
Same goes for men.
And what if a fat guy didn’t have the wit and personality to fall back on? What then? He’s probably lonely, just like the fictional fat woman. There’s plenty of videos of these kinds of guys on Youtube, just as there are videos of these kinds of girls. Charisma and weight have no correlation.
It doesn’t matter what gender they are, or even their weight. People will still have body issues. How they tackle is it up to that person, but I know that I’ve seen a whole bunch of ‘Shocking’ news reports in my time that point out the blindingly obvious;
“Teenage boys who are fat get picked on too! AND they’re unhappy about it! Teenage boys are also concerned about their weight.” No shit, Sherlock. Teenage boys who aren’t fat also get picked on. Teenage girls, again, fat or thin, will get picked on. That’s school, that’s what happens. Kids are cruel.
I will never believe your argument about it being easier for men to be overweight than women. There is the same amount of pressure on men as on women, the same amount of media attention given to it, and the same unrealistic ‘ideals’ set by magazines and advertisements.
And it’s not just becoming optional.
If, for example, you want to wear dungarees, wear dungarees. People may point out that dungarees may not be the most fashionable thing to wear after the age of about 4, but if you want to wear them, go nuts. Sew on sequins. Paint go-faster stripes up the side. You’ll look bizarre in my eyes, but if that’s the statement you want to make then roll with it. Go ahead.
Young girls seeing adverts and thinking that worth is based on their appearance, and young boys playing a game that supports this idea. It could work the same the other way. But isn’t that what role models are about? Many young girls will want to be like the glamourous pop star or actress, but I had always assumed that was more to do with lifestyle than looks. Wouldn’t most people rather be like the rich celebrity with the nice things than the office worker in a cubicle, living in a bedsit?
Again, this works the same way. Male role models and Female role models will often be Musicians and Movie Stars, and it’s more the lifestyle and the money that appeals to use more than anything else. I know that a lot of controversy kicks up frequently about people like Rihanna, Christina Aguilara and the Pussycat Dolls because of their overly sexualised videos, etc. and a lot of the anger comes from mothers who think that their children are being told to dress and act like that.
I’m just going to go ahead and throw out the phenomenon known as Beauty Pageants that are popular in America. Young girls are tarted up and paraded in front of rooms of people. The whole thing makes me feel quite ill, and I just found a list of age groups from the Arkansas Beauty Pageant website, which makes me feel even more ill.
AGE DIVISIONS::
Infant Miss 0 – 12 Months
Baby Miss 13 – 23 Months
Toddler Miss 2 – 3 ½ Years (42 mths)
Tiny Miss 3 ½ (43 mths) – 5 Years (60 mths)
Little Miss 5 – 7 Years
Young Miss 8 – 10 Years
Junior Miss 11 – 13 Years
Teen Miss 14 – 17 Years
Infant miss. They’re not even a year old and they’re being entered into this kind of thing. When this is going on, I don’t think we can blame just the media for girls wanting to be a certain way. Although I agree that children are impressionable, but it’s not adverts telling them that their worth is based on their appearance. It’s their peers. Think back to school, when even the brand of clothes you wore was a vitally important thing. This wasn’t necessarily because you wanted to look like that woman in the adverts, it was because you wanted to fit in with your friends. Peer groups play a much bigger part at that age. Then again, for example, a lot of kids start learning instruments at this age, because they want to be like that musician that they like, which I think is a positive thing that comes from the same idea.
Feminism hasn’t been going that long in the grand scheme of things, but I’m not trying to combat it and ‘emasculate’ any men. The last thing I want is another wave of testosterone fuelled, WKD swilling, football hooligan pricks, but I would rather more fight for the option to be more of an intelligent breed of men. Men who are allowed to enjoy the stereotypically ‘Manly’ things such as fishing and rugby if they like, without the fear of being mocked by the Troglodyte men with dragging knuckles and furrowed brows, brandishing a can of Carling. Nor do I want to be chastised by Women, especially Feminists, for being sexist or misogynistic just because I enjoy cooking on a barbecue.
I bring your attention, again, to the aims of my ‘individualist’ movement. And again, I will say that I support Feminism, but I don’t support the bat-shit loco Militant Feminists who don’t feel that women can ever do wrong and everything bad that’s ever happened has been the fault of men, no matter how much good they may have also done.
Extremists, of any kind, are best avoided.
03/10/2011 at 21:49 |
It should stop being Men and Women and to quote Caitlin Moran be “The guys.” Everyone all together, being “Polite”.
I think my issue with this is so many of your points, if flipped to being about men, fall apart. A man dressed in a tight, short sleeved t-shirt, figure hugging trousers, slicked hair, a man who has made an effort, if he gets leered at by women… Is it his fault? If he gets a bigger tip, or maybe gets his arse pinched, is it because of his clothing choices? What if he got cornered in a bar and felt up by an over zealous woman, even though he said no… Is it okay because his clothes say he’s “up for it”?
Women AND MEN should wear what they like. It is not OK to behave that way to someone, “Asking for it” is not an excuse, i don’t dress the way i do to get men’s attention, i do it because i like the clothes. A lot of clothing simply isn’t cut for my body shape, i often show a lot of cleavage, i’m not attention seeking, i just don’t have much of an option. I am not going to dress in a sack/turtle neck/hijib.
And when it comes to the male/female divide on clothing and looks in influential positions, female politicians, spokes people, women in industry will have their clothing choices judged BEFORE they have the contents of their speech pulled apart. We should be on the same playing field. Pull down David Cameron’s suit choice, Barack Obama wearing mismatching accessories O.M.G… When was the last time you saw a male politician’s wardrobe critiqued?
As for the whole fat/body acceptance i do agree it is hard for both male and female. There is some sort of unobtainable body beautiful that works for both sexes, but there is more acceptance to a fat man.
Name one fat female film star.
One.
Name a female film star. STAR over a size 6? There is Christina Hendricks, girl’s got curves, but they are equally unobtainable.
The general public are never shown a happy, well adjusted fat woman, not one on a diet, or sad or lonely, but one happy, and doing well with life…
A diet coke ad, yes objectifying men. There is one fat puppet in the whole series of adverts – Grey, brown ill fitting suit, swooning when a man walks in. In short and inept human.
Fat man in adverts -
Look at him in his one piece surrounded by women.
I speak from experience as someone who blogs from the fatshion, chubby fashion world. People telling me that when i lose weight i would feel happier, although i have never blogged anything but acceptance for my body. Because that’s what the media tells us fat woman feel.
03/10/2011 at 23:04 |
“What if he got cornered in a bar and felt up by an over zealous woman, even though he said no… Is it okay because his clothes say he’s “up for it”?”
Whoa there! That is not what I said at all! I’m not condoning rape!
Yes, if a man is dressing provocatively, same as women, he should not be surprised if the results are attention. I didn’t mean that any cleavage at all is grounds for molestation, I meant the girls who show off too much skin for a family friendly setting. Do you think that this is an acceptable way to dress or behave without warranting some attention?
Do you think that Justin Beiber, The Wanted or JLS, to name a few, are sold solely on the basis of their talent? So why so much controversy when girls bands act similarly?
Dressing provocatively is done to get a reaction, but if you find the person giving you that reaction ugly, I think it’s a bit rich to decide that it’s inappropriate. I had in mind, when I wrote this, certain Scally girls I used to know, who would unbutton their shirts to expose their bras, but if they caught someone they didn’t find attractive glancing in their direction, even if it wasn’t a lusty stare, they would react aggressively.
I’m all for wearing clothes that make you feel good, and everyone likes compliments that make them feel good. I do not, however, think it is appropriate, ever, to wolf-whistle someone.
Feel free to read my blog again, where it points out that glances from men, meant kindly or lecherously, are reacted to upon whether or not the woman finds the man attractive. The intent is not the deciding factor as to whether or not the women is offended, it is whether or not she finds the man attractive.
I also never used the phrase ‘Asking for it’. That’s you projecting.
Which female politicians have been criticised for their choice of clothes? Do you think that men will rip apart politicians, or any women in power because of their choice in clothes? You will find very few men bitching about another’s fashion choices. A lot of the issues you have are with other women, the women who write the articles, often not men. With the exception of Silvio Berlusconi (who I think we can ignore as a complete fucking tool) I can’t think of anyone who has judged a woman’s competence, especially in a seat of power, based on her attire. Feel free to pass remark on the suit choices of Barack Obama or Nick Clegg. I can tell you now that I have never once paid attention to what an MP is wearing, Male or Female. As I mentioned, neither their fashion choices, nor their looks, affect their competence.
What this does bring to mind though, is the ribbing that David Cameron got based on his campaign posters, which showed a large picture of his face and a slogan about the NHS. That, I felt, was entirely unjust. Whether or not he was wearing make-up or had been photoshopped does not affect how he stands as PM. I cannot, however, think of an example of women in parliament being under this kind of scrutiny.
When was the last time you saw a female politicians wardrobe critiqued, except perhaps by other women?
Now, fat female film stars:
Roseanne in ‘Roseanne’
Renée Zellweger in ‘Bridget Jones’ Diary’
Nia Vardalos of ‘My Big Fat Greek Wedding’
Ruth Jones of ‘Gavin and Stacey’ fame
Olivia Colman in the first few series of ‘Peep Show’ bore some extra weight
Denise Borino-Quinn of ‘The Sopranos’ fame
Queen Latifah of various awful shit
Nikki Blonsky of ‘Hairspray’
Oprah Winfrey of such things as ‘Star Trek: The Next Generation’ and ‘Sister Act’
Dawn French of ‘The Vicar of Dibley’
There’s 10 large women of Films and TV. Not to mention musicians such as Beth Ditto or Nina Simone.
And I knew you were going to bring up that coke advert, but try these on for size:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0O8t4zXQy8
if you’re into coke adverts.
Skimming swiftly over the objectification of men in that advert I see, and getting onto your biggest beef which is weight issues, which is something you’ve brought to the table in order to get irate about.
As for fat women in adverts, there are rarely any. I can only think of two advertising campaigns that contains fat men, however, which is this one:
And the John Smiths series.
I believe I talked at some length about how advertising works, how people want to be sold things by thin, attractive people. That’s marketing for you. But then again, women have a whole host of adverts dedicated to selling larger sizes of clothes;
Simplybe and Evans come to mind. But what have men got? Jacamo. Fucking Jacamo.
Also, you’ll notice that in The Trainline advert, the Fat man in the one piece has no partner, however all the skinnier dancers go off with someone.
This is deviating from the point now quite a lot, which was about Feminism. I’m not willing to discuss weight issues at much more length. Yes, advertising campaigns can be cruel. No, marketing is not fair. Yes, sex sells, and that’s something we’re told time and time again. Sad, but true, fat people in adverts don’t happen much except to add comedic value.
To summarise, I support feminism, Advertising is unfair to people over a certain weight and with undesirable looks, men and women suffer from prejudice as a result of weight problems, men and women have body issues, some men are bastards, some women are bastards, can’t we all just get along?
I’ll state my point again, Individualism.
This was never meant to be an attack on feminism and especially not to do with weight issues. It was meant to raise the point that, whereas I see plenty of anger and malevolence in the Media towards things which can be viewed as sexist, there are plenty of other ways to look at this. Feminist propaganda is often biased, as most propaganda is, and I was merely trying to highlight some misrepresentations in their arguments.
04/10/2011 at 00:32 |
I had something written down, my phone wiped it, so i’ll try again.
I know you never used the phrase “asking for it” but you used the phrase “tits flapping around” and i was being deliberately provocative. Why can’t people wear what they want, isn’t the it the observing party who has to control themselves not the wearer? A father brought his child in to work this morning wearing a t shirt saying “this would look better on your bedroom floor” i didn’t take him home and try it out.
Also i think the statement about people reacting differently on whether or not they find the person attractive is wrong, its more to do with the way the attention is delivered, a smile, a compliment is fine, most people welcome someone telling them that they look nice. There is a line where it becomes letcherous and overtly sexual, and its wrong whether aimed at or from a man or a woman, there’s a difference between letching and complimenting.
My comment about female politicians came straight from the video and i agree, it’s normally female journalists writing, but that’s what the male dominated media think we want to read about politics. I want to know policies not dress sizes. We need more women writing, filming, animating, editing, producing… Normalising a female non-ascetic view of the world. Everyone should be free from how they dress when they air their views.
I asked for film stars, most of your examples aren’t they’re are still only a handful of real women in the media.
I woefully forgot Queen Latifa who awesome in Chicago.
Zelwegger is famously minuscule, she piled on the pounds for the part and lost them just as quickly.
Beth Ditto is amazing, a true figurehead of body acceptance, but one in a sea of size 6 girls. If the UK average is a 16, why doesn’t the media reflect that? Yes its my personal rant, and i agree the body beautiful thing effects male and female alike, but i challenge you to pick up a teen girls mag (without being arrested ;D) and not see why thus is a huge issue for girls.
I hate that coke ad as much as i hate the one i posted,i hate the use of the rippling male body to sell things to women as much as i hate the use of the “nuts girls” to sell products to men. I dont like being told who to fancy.
I’d much rather be sold something by a person who knows and loves the product they sell, which is why i often find myself shopping independent shops who know where, when, who… They can name the cow that rump steak cane from and who killed it…
I don’t think you do support feminism, or you have a squewed idea of what it is, yes it’s bias, but it isn’t man hating. I like men, love them in fact, not met a feminist that doesn’t, but as women we are still not equal. We have limited political representation, lower wages and longer hours, we’re more often the unpaid career, taking the strain off the nhs and other agencies. All we want is a level playing field, the guys all together.
There will be no bra burning… I need the support!
04/10/2011 at 09:11 |
Right, You seem to have missed the point on quite a lot of these subjects, or you’re just trolling. Either way, this argument is getting tedious so I’ll just try and rattle this off as quickly as a I can:
People can wear what they want, I seem to remember saying so, (Dungarees, sequins, go faster stripes, go right ahead) it doesn’t affect me one iota how people dress. However, women are as quick to comment on the dress choices of other women as men, often quicker to do so. If a woman is dressed so that she exposes a lot of flesh, I’m talking dressed in practically just in her underwear in the middle of a city, she’s perfectly entitled to do so. What she is not entitled to, in my opinion, is the option of choosing who does or who doesn’t find her attractive. And if it’s the observing party who has to control themselves, next time I see you I’ll come dressed in Speedos and nothing else and see if you think that’s appropriate or doesn’t warrant some comment or a glance. The person who wears the clothes knows how much attention they’re going to get and should be able to cope with the consequences (Once again, not condoning rape). If a woman is exposing her breasts for the attention of one group of men, she should then also be able to accept the attention of others.
T-Shirt strap lines are yours to ignore, that point is completely invalid and your logic completely flawed.The point was that if someone was wearing a T-shirt that read “I hate black people” he or she should be made to accept the negative comments that come from making such poor wardrobe choices, but it’s their choice to wear it. Others should not have to deal with a top that reads “I fucked your mum’s cunt with a sword” just because it’s the ‘wearers choice’. It’s obscene and vulgar and they should expect a reaction, my guess would be that they are looking to get a reaction from wearing it. They choose to wear the incriminating item of clothing, they should be able to deal with the repercussions (once again, not condoning rape).
Again, you’ve just repeated my point back to me, but reversed. It doesn’t always come down to intent, and again I’m talking about specific types of women here; but a compliment, everyone likes. A glance from a stranger a lot of women will react to only if they find the man attractive. Man comes over and tells you that you look nice, if he’s attractive, great! If he’s not, run away, look alarmed to your friends and tell them that he’s creepy so that he has to deal with discerning glares from the women of that corner all night. It is to do with how attractive you find that person as to the reaction. I never said that men were innocent of this, either, because they’re not. We do it too. And I’ve seen things like this happen enough to know that women love compliments but mostly they love compliments from men they find attractive or at least not hideous.
As for female journalists in the male-dominated media, do these names mean thing to you: Rebekah Brooks, Katharine Graham, Pauline Kael, Barbarah Walters or Ann Franklin?
If you want to know Policies and news rather than dress sizes or clashing colour combinations, read a broadsheet.
More women writing, directing, producing, etc. will come partly from more women going for those jobs. I have heard those statistics that say ‘This job breaks down into the amount of women working in that sector- Whatever%, Men – Whatever%’ but there’s no equal statistic saying how many men and women applied for those jobs. Bring me a statistic that says that, then maybe you’ve got part of an argument. You’d still need to know how good they were at those jobs though. “The Media” is quite male-dominated, I agree, but when it comes to Films, there are more than you’d think. You can’t just say ‘The Media’ acts like this, you need to break it down. Films, magazines, newspapers, editorials, television, journalism, documentary, animation, drama…
I don’t see you running for local MP, or trying to get a job at the BBC, or writing a feature. Film is considered quite nerdy, when it comes down to production, and just like you won’t get so many women playing Warhammer, you won’t get so many women playing or designing computer games, you won’t get so many women working in film. I know that some women do play computer games, I’m not saying NO women do, before you get irate about that point, I’m saying more men play computer games than women. That’s why most games are aimed at men, their primary demographic. At a guess, I’d say that there is probably less interest from women to work in that field. There is always the possibility that the men they interviewed were just better qualified and better at the job than the women. Nothing to do with gender, just one person being better at something than someone else.
When it comes to dressing how you want to air your views, Politicians are required to wear smart clothes; suits, etc. Or people wouldn’t take them seriously. It’s their uniform. It’s to do with position, not gender.
You asked for ONE fat female film star, I gave you TEN and you’re still not happy. I’m also going to mention here Melissa McCarthy, taking it up to Eleven. Now name me enough films with fat female characters, and I’ll bet for every character you’ll find a fat woman. Beth Ditto, you said so yourself, is a figurehead, but there are a ton more thinner girls out there? What the hell is that argument? “Sure, Martin Luther King may be inspiring, but there’s way more white guys in pointy hats.” makes as much sense.
As for teen magazines, you look at teenage boys. Expected to be enthralled by Football, go to the gym, get muscle mass, they too are ‘expected’ to be thin. I don’t think that this argument will ever be solved, so I’ll leave it there.
People aren’t telling you to find these people attractive in adverts, they’re going for stereotypes. Advertising is something that has a lot of money put into it, and certain things work so keep going with it. Whereas I find Keira Knightley and Joss Stone fucking tedious, I doubt my irritation of them will spurn much of a trough in the sales of Chanel. There are certain rules which people tend to stick to because it’s a proven format. Unfortunately, that’s how it is. No one’s saying ‘FIND THIS PERSON ATTRACTIVE! YOU MUST LOOK LIKE THIS!” that’s what people constantly seem to take from it, which confuses me. I have never seen an advert that has out and out told me how to look or dress, except in a book by George Orwell.
As for being sold something by someone who knows and loves the product they sell, I bring up my point about my pub again. I know the beer, I’ve tasted it, I know what it is, what it’s like, often where it’s from, other beers by the same brewery, etc. But if you want to be sold things that way, go to your butcher or a greengrocer, don’t shop at Asda or Sainsburys or Waitrose, or complain that the people in the adverts don’t know the product. Celebrity endorsement is another powerful marketing tool, and David Mitchell makes a point, in one of his ‘Soapbox’ videos, that he was given a load of free produce from his sponsors, although he never would have bought it in the shop. He doesn’t care about it, he’s just being paid for it.
I do support feminism, and as I’ve mentioned at least twice already, I can differentiate between the Bra Burning militant feminists, who I have met a few of, I can tell you they do exist, and I dislike them, (Extremism of any kind is best avoided) and your ‘regular’ feminists; You, Caitlin Moran, Alice. Feminism is good, I’d love to see complete equality, but the things you’re fighting for aren’t all to do with gender. Men are still, typically, physically stronger than women. Women are still, typically, more nurturing and come more naturally to caring. People will often trust women more than men, women are generally viewed as being more polite. These examples aren’t always the case, they’re stereotypes.
I do support feminism, you’ve completely missed most of my points and brought you own issues about weight to the table. Take your hang ups, post them on your own blog, don’t bring them into mine for the sake of argument.